Take care and thank you for adding so much to this blog. You are always welcome back here. Oh, religion is not the topic of most of what I post, so you might find other things of interest as well.

But I am afraid that the first line of my first post is a part of where I see this problem stemming from.

I am offended by posters outside churches I walk by in my town. I am referred to as a sinner and so on. There was for an entire month before christmas in the high street of my town a man who paraded up and down with a giant sign on a stick, I do not remember exactly what it was he was saying. But he would more or less chase people up the street shouting about jesus etc. I have people in black suits knocking on my door, who wish to tell me that my beliefs are wrong and that I should, like a sheep, follow what they believe. Now none of this language is what you could refer to as hate speech, but it is offensive and can be very embarassing and irritating.

I am afraid that for people who wish to retaliate towards this type of thing, the net is a very easy place to be that man with the sign on stick chasing people, or go knocking on peoples doors, but with the complete opposite message. Infact on the net you can be really, really offensive and not be arrested as the man in the high street would be.

I think the answer is really to treat these people who post these messages on the net the same way as most people treat the man with the stick and sign or the people who knock on the door. Smile politely, tell them you are quite comfortable with your beliefs and do not whatever you do, engage these people in any coversation further than that, then close the door or walk away…..

Nonetheless, I choose to post about this growing attack on the religious because it seems to be more acceptable in society. Where this same speech directed at people because of gender, race or sexual preference, it would be condemned. But our society which preaches acceptance and understanding is becoming much more tolerant the harsh attacks on people of faith. I will even venture to say that your first comment appeared to be an example of this. Let me explain.

From everything you have shared, I would guess that you are an educated, typically friendly individual who is respectful of most people. After your recent posts, I would even say that day-to-day you have no problem with the average Christian or religious person. But you are concerned (as am I) about the radical religious who blow up buses or health care clinics in the name of God.

Given all that, you still left a comment that painted people of faith with a broad brush and expressed grave fear about religion destroying the world. Is it possible that your first response was part of a more common voice (on the Net) that feels comfortable condemning people of faith?

I hope I am making myself clear and that you do not take this as anything but my attempt to understand where some of the harsh talk comes from. Quite frankly, my own response was in the same vain. I actually edited my response a couple times to take out some harsh sarcasm that was an inappropriate response. My point being that we feel more comfortable attacking those we do not know or do not understand…especially if that behavior seems acceptable in common society.

Believe me, I could have (and may someday) written a post about the issues I have with those Christians that spend time finding fault in others and radically pushing their faith on society. But in this post, I choose to write about those acting the same way from the other side of the fence.

BTW, I’m not nuts about the titles people of faith, non-believers, believers or atheist…I just don’t know what other way to describe these differences. Unfortunately, I think the jargon somewhat adds to the separateness that we experience.

Thank you so much for coming back by and sharing of yourself. Just from these few words you’ve written, I have grown to respect you. Your honesty and heart felt sharing have helped educate me. I only wish for more open discussions like these that will help people of all beliefs learn to live together.

I suppose that just with this being on the internet, I expected this to turn into the usual heated mudslinging that normally ensues

I would also not claim to be an atheist either. I do not have a faith I follow nor one I would wish to. I do not discount the idea of higher consciousness, but I dont believe that if there is a such a thing in the universe it particularly cares about individual people or practices we perform. I think that my belief is probably far more common than true Atheism.

I would suggest that most “Non Believers” are infact critical deists, not the athiests they claim to be at all. Ie they do believe in a higher conscious being – but they also have the following beliefs.

* Rejection of all religions based on books that claim to contain the revealed word of God.
* Rejection of reports of miracles, prophecies and religious “mysteries”.
* Rejection of the Genesis account of creation and the doctrine of original sin, along with all similar beliefs.
* Rejection of Judaism, Christianity, Islam and other religious beliefs.

I think this could be a very intersting discussion

One thing about my first post, I do not single out christians as the people I am talking about. I think its clear that neither of us are talking about everday people who do or not have beliefs. We are talking about fundamentalist groups of people. With so many religions and so many fundamentalist groups associated with them, was it not innevitable that there would be fundamentalist atheists at some point also? This is a relative new thing, probably brought about by the advent of the internet. Atheism has never had a “church” or anywhere people who do not believe get together. The internet has allowed this happen in a loose informal way and what you are seeing is that as with all religious beliefs there is a fundamentalist group forming within this.

I find any form of fundamentalist beliefs are disturbing to me, and that includes the people that you are talking about here. But I am afraid that I do not find them as frightening as any of the religious fundamentalists. I will not get into discussing what some of those groups want for the world, but as I am sure you are aware some of it is very unpleasant and very dangerous to all of us.

As I have said, I think the atheist fundamentalists you are referring to are not to be found in groups anywhere but on the internet. I also believe that a large proportion of them are probably spotty faced teenagers trying to be rebellious and offensive just for the sake of it, though not all. I do not believe that they will leave the internet with theit beliefs either.

I have personally come across many fundamentalist views from people on many sites I have posted on. For example a discussion board on evolution was repeatedly interupted by very annoying posts from people with creationst views. It became very difficult not to go out of your way to try and offend some of these people as they seemed bent on offensive behaviour.

Please do not think I have taken any offense at your post, quite the opposite I think you have raised a very interesting issue here.

But as with most things, it is the smallest loudest groups that spoil it for the rest of us!

It is clear that you do not agree with or understand why the majority of people believe in a higher being. I respect your position and believe that you have probably given much thought to this. I also understand that you have seen how religion can be used as a motivation to do horrendous acts, just as money and love have also motivated terrible actions. Please understand that I respect your beliefs and am not trying to change them or “save you”. But to continue our dialogue regarding the harsh rhetoric directed at those who believe in a God, here are my thoughts.

To begin with, you’ve done a nice job of stereotyping what Christians believe. Your statement, “Non Believers are…Basically are thought of as beneath “people of faith” in pretty much every way.” may be true for some, but not most Christians. Have you ever had a conversation with one of the majority of Christians not shouting on the Internet about what they believe? From your comments, it does not appear so. I do not deny that some believe as you’ve described, but the majority do not. Of course, those offensive believers who do find others beneath them are likely to be some of the loudest voices on the Internet and in other medias…just as the offensive non-believers are the loudest voices on Digg and other medias. It fools us into sometimes believing that they represent the majority, when that is not the case.

I also find that you comfortably use words like scorn, distrust, and fear to describe how you feel toward Christians without seeing that this is just an example of what I’ve written about. You state that, “What is we fear from you? The loss of our planet, the loss of our freedom, the loss of our lives, the loss of our history, the loss of science, the loss of education, the loss of free thinking, the loss of progress, the loss of free speech. and so on and on and on…?” Yet religion has been with us from the beginning of time. So the logic of such fear is clearly unfounded. Science, education, the planet…all these things have thrived alongside religion. I find your alarmist proclamations to be completely illogical. Since we have always had religion, how is it that we have also had progress? What significant change do we have now that gives religion such power? We are actually seeing religion have less and less power to run governments and control people (and that is something you and I would agree is a good thing).

And regarding your comment about free thinking, a most popular underhanded slight of people of faith; why is joining the growing throngs of non-believers considered free thinking? Whether Christian or not, anyone who pushes their beliefs on others is trying to limit free thinking. Yes, this has been a common practice of many Christians (which I do not support), but it is now a strategy of many like you who would have me change my beliefs. How about allowing me to freely think as I choose, instead of condemning me for my beliefs?

I do not know why you are so threatened by what I believe about the afterlife or whether or not there is a God. I understand that there are Christians who behave badly, but then we can find examples of that in every group in society. Condemning the beliefs of all Christians (as you have done) because of the actions of some is the problem.

I am not asking you to drop on your knees and pray to a God you don’t believe in. I am simply asking you to let me believe as I chose and stop with the broad generalizations and doomsday predictions because you don’t understand me. From what you have shared (and I do appreciate your sharing your opinion), I would venture to guess you have not spent time talking with a Christian about these issues. And I don’t mean an argumentative chat on the Internet or even this dialogue. I would recommend, only for educational purposes for both of you, that you have a conversation with a quieter Christian…one who is not looking to convert you, but is willing to civilly discuss your point of view. BTW, those are the majority of Christians, just not the ones we usually see on the talk shows or evening news.

“Non Believers” are supposedly going to live in damnation and eternal pain in the fires of hell when they die, or something along those lines…. Or are sinners, or evil, or blah blah blah. Basically are thought of as beneath “people of faith” in pretty much every way.

Your Intelligent design bunch with their “science” and “proof” are quite frankly insulting to intelligent thought, ridiculous and I find them quite offensive not to mention thoroughly dangerous. The idea that these people could hold sway at any time is truly frightening.

“people of faith” cannot claim to be innocent parties here, there are just too many reasons for non believers to to direct scorn, distrust and genuine fear of what religion can and has led people to do and believe. This fear is not unfounded.

What is we fear from you?
The loss of our planet, the loss of our freedom, the loss of our lives, the loss of our history, the loss of science, the loss of education, the loss of free thinking, the loss of progress, the loss of free speech. and so on and on and on……

Religion by its very nature is a divisive thing, it separates “us” from “them”

Fear and offense toward non believers – it is what religion has preached to for years, people are just fighting back. As you feel the need to.

Fortunately the world has become a consumer society and people are beginning to care more about what they have in the here and and now, in reality – than what they might get after death, if they back the right team. This is a battle religion will ultimately loose – unless we go back to the dark ages, which is what you lot want, and we fear.